Discussion in 'Political Discussions' started by David Kleber - KB3FXI, Sep 6, 2015.
Never cared for her...
In 1991, the UN with full approval of the US, passed a resolution that allowed Iraq to trade oil for food. There was essentially no limit to the food that could be sought. With this resolution passed, Sadam did a fascinating thing. He refused to accept the resolution. Instead, he acted just as Adolf did as Germany was in its final destruction at the end of the war. Adolf ordered the Germans to fight on. Well Sadam decided to punish the Iraqies for losing, also. He would not feed his own people but used scarce availability to punish and kill his own for failing to achieve his personal goals. In country ememies or less than ardent supporters were punished more.
Prior to the first war in Iraq, infant death rates were more than 45/1000 live births. This all is confirmed data by multinational health groups. Up until 2003, when sanctions were lifted - period - from 1991 to 2003, infant birth rates rose but no documentation of any national infant death rates exist. Estimates typically used are from health care workers in Shi'ite regions and then extrapolated to the entire nation making claim that fed part of the country had infant death rates equally Shi'ite infant death rates.
Much is said on this forum about political tale-telling and the untrustworthiness of politicians in general. All claims regarding the increased infant death rate are tied to political agendas of persons here, in England, Germany, etc.
Three things are known: 1) Sadam starved his own people as a political ploy to win battles he had already lost; 2) no reputable data is available that the infant death rate rose from 45/1000 to even close to 60/1000 live births; 3) said only after I make it know the I have never liked or trusted Albright, she did not approve of the increasing infant death rates. She approved of sanctions that were dismembering Iraq; it was Sadam that was killing the children in attempts to defeat his at home enemies and to defeat his enemies elsewhere in the world.
Part of the fun of being married to an immigrant is the varying viewpoints that come from the in-laws, etc. My wife is German, was German, whatever. News from her home front is that better than 1/2 a million Arab and African refugees have literally burst through borders in mass wave attacks. Germany and Austria have repeatedly agreed to absorb large groups of these travelers. The reports are that many Syrian technical professionals have told the Austrian government that Sadam did move weapons to Syria before the second war and recently, there are reports of ISIS using poison gas on Kurds, not Quds, with some new Austrian arrivals telling the tale that the gas was originally Sadam's.
Mike - WE3L
Hmmm...... Maybe George Bush Jr was correct?
But, maybe not. She moved in with me, became part of my family and had a truely Americanized baby. She did not hot move into little Berlin, join the Bund, keep speaking German primarily and so on. The wife joined US/us completely.
Mike - WE3L
What I meant was about George Bush Jr being correct about WMD in Iraq.
Oops!! Not being fully awake while posting not only leads to bad spelling, bad grammar and extra postings, it leads to flaws in comprehension.
Thought it meant the Florida Bush.
Mike - WE3L
Saddam was our puppet. ISIS is our creation. The Taliban was our creation. Gaddafi was our puppet. Mubarak was our puppet. The Shaw of Iran is an interesting story with the overthrough of Mosaddegh (a democratically elected leader of Iran). Osama bin Laden was a CIA asset who was later captured then dumped in the ocean (that was a good one). FACT is, Mike... our Country has really messed up and what's worse is it's more than likely intentional rather than being attributed to incompetence.
As I've said many times before, it's a damn shame that the people of the United States of America didn't heed the advise given to us in the farewell addresses from President Washington and President Eisenhower. What comes around, goes around. We're on the verge of feeling some big pain here soon as a direct result of our foreign policy, the misguided power of the military industrial complex, and allowing private banking cartels to run our monetary system. The clip from Madeleine is pretty telling. The history of our involvement in the middle east is very telling, too. Especially after 911. Lots of lies and MILLIONS dead. And when the US petro dollar tanks, we're going to be in a very bad way... with little sympathy from the rest of the world. It's a VERY bad spot we're in.
In an attempt to heed General Washington, I have come up with a couple of questions whose answers might help me better understand the points presented above.
First, what Washington said; taken, in order, from his farewell address; he believed in addressing the most important issues first.
“Promote then, as an object of primary importance, institutions for the general diffusion of knowledge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.”
Question 1) Just what is this US petro dollar that is going to tank?
PetroDollar is a term invented by economists to describe the pricing of oil trades in US dollars and not in the currency of the producing nation (unless of course the producing nation was the US). The term was coined when Saudi Arabia agreed to US Dollar pricing of its oil. The term has expanded a bit as Canadian oil fields have been developed and can also mean the Canadian dollar.
There is an assumption that PetroDollar relates to US Oil Companies’ profits or losses from oil trade. But, this is not actually true. In 1973, when the US and its allies backed the State if Israel during the Yom Kippur War, Saudi Arabia and the OPEC Nations embargoed the US and its allies creating the fuel crisis of 1973 in the US, Canada and Western Europe. It was predicted that the PetroDollar would die; not because of the PetroDollar’s value but because the US was out of the oil trading business, at least for a while, in OPEC regions.
So, the PetroDollar is a comparison standard not an actual dollar and it cannot crash. This is, however, not to say that the actual value of the dollar cannot crash – it can and it is – but not the petrodollar as it does not exist. Profits from oil trade are just that – profits. The dollar is just that – the dollar – and its value is only instantaneously determinate.
Again, just what is this US petrodollar that is going to tank? And, when did it become the US petrodollar? (Snuck question 2 in there).
3) The overthrow of Mosaddegh in Iran? Mosaddegh was the leader of the Tudeh Party – the pro-soviet communist party of Iran – formed in 1920. He was elected and made the claim that he had the constitutional right to name the leaders of defense in Iran. The Shah disagreed and Mosaddegh resigned in protest. Then, post resignation, attempted a popular revolt, with other Tudeh members, against the Shah. He was arrested. How is resignation now an overthrow?
4) Mubarak was our puppet? In the Yom Kippur War of 1973, Mubarak was commander of the entire Egyptian Air Force. He, the Egyptian Air Force, was creamed by the Israeli Air Force as was the Jordanian and Syrian Air Forces. (Thus, that petrodollar thing above). Interestingly, the Soviets were shown for the third time that their Mig-21s were poorly designed and compared to modern fighters, crap. The Soviets pressured all Mid-East Countries to continue to press Israel. Pressure on Israel meant pressure on the US. Sadat was Egypt’s President and he saw the futility of forever war in the Middle East. He attempted to put an end to this war. He made Mubarak vice-president. When the Arab Brotherhood, as the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, later Al-Qaeda, murdered Sadat, Mubarak became president. He still wanted peace – shame on this puppet behavior?!? Maybe he should have re-opened hostilities with Israel?
5) Gaddafi was our puppet? The leader of and founder of the Great Socialist Peoples’ State of the Third International and ally of the Soviet Union was our puppet. How? When? Over Locherbie?
6) Sadam was our puppet? When? He barely had time between slaughtering his own people in Mounds of Dung stlye and attacking neighbors. His only lifetime regret was that China’s Communist Leader was a great sadist than he was. His leadership of the Ba’ath Party, the Socialist Party of Iraq took a lot of his time also. Perhaps he was our puppet between the gassing of the Kurds and the Irainians. Is that it?
7) If the Muslim Brotherhood began at WWI, and Al-Qaeda and ISIL and ISIS is the Brotherhood in action and it is sworn to dominate the world, when did we create them? If the Brotherhood has determined to act as Turkey, the Caliphate, did after WWI and wipe out the Armenians, perhaps they might have been too busy to know they were to be our puppets. The Brotherhood successfully recruited the Hanzar, the largest SS division in WWII. The division’s task, kill all Jews and Orthodox Christians in the Balkans. The division’s spiritual leader was the grand mufti of Jeruselum, the founder of the Brotherhood.
“We now stand ten years past the midpoint of a century that has witnessed four major wars among great nations. Three of these involved our own country. Despite these holocausts America is today the strongest, the most influential and most productive nation in the world. Understandably proud of this pre-eminence, we yet realize that America's leadership and prestige depend, not merely upon our unmatched material progress, riches and military strength, but on how we use our power in the interests of world peace and human betterment.
Throughout America's adventure in free government, such basic purposes have been to keep the peace; to foster progress in human achievement, and to enhance liberty, dignity and integrity among peoples and among nations.
To strive for less would be unworthy of a free and religious people.”
Keep the Peace – Foster Progress – Enhance Liberty - Enhance Dignity – Enhance Integrity
Perhaps we should listen this General. But when do we reach a point when we are not striving for less? Such as how many houses up the street marks the point where the rape happening is not my concern; how many blocks over mark the point where a murder or robbery is not my business? Should it be measured in such short distances?
The answers to these might tell us if we are following Eisenhower’s advice – or maybe not.
You are right. The fed is not proper and needs to be abolished.
But, what goes around comes around? What did the Chinese do to deserve Mounds of Dung? Hell, what did the native Americans do to deserve us and the persistent conquest and re-conquests of the last four hundred years of immigration that brought us here? The term American Dream was coined in 1846 - it had nothing to do with wealth - its meaning had to do with the above quotes of Washington and Eisenhower. The term was conquered though, as America was by outsiders - an expat living in England and then real estate agents.
Our greatest failure is that we have failed to continue the revolution of 1775 and the earth changing, but few, brilliant concepts that came with it. Not one of the brilliant concepts was wealth; after all, I don't see chinese getting up each morning saying, "let's go out and get poor again, today."
Star date – 5776-01-02 12:40LT in the Piedmont Upland Quadrant – FN20
After a restful period of little sleep, I realized why I had been dissatisfied with the questions I asked of the assembled Commander at the fleet conference last night.
I believe that I need to re-ask one question. Sadam a US puppet?!?
In 1968, Sadam helped the Iraqi Ba’athist party, the Iraqi Socialist Party and intended ally of the Soviet Union to come to power. One year earlier, Iraq had been barely touched by the Third Arab-Israeli War, also called the Six Day War. The Ba’athists, however were followers and want-to-be leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood. They consolidated power through brutality, a hallmark of the Brotherhood (they made their bones) and then turned to complete the tack of the Hanzar. Fourteen Jews were arrested and executed, without evidence, for spying on Iraq for Israel, America’s ally.
When Sadam came into his own power and finished making his own bones, he continued his Hanzarik destruction of the Jews in Iraq. At his death, there were less than 50 Jews living in Iraq; half were foreigners; none were observant. Which puppets strings were pulled to accomplish this?
Well I feel better now so I am off to the Neshaminy to make sure my bread has floated away and my stones have sunk.
I'm not sure why you selected the quotes you did from Washington's farewell speech, but major point of the address is staying out of foreign entanglements.
Here's the main point of Eisenhower's farewell address:
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."
As to #4, I meant to say "Morsi", but I wouldn't doubt that the CIA had a hand in getting Mubarak in office.
As for Mosaddegh, do a search on "Operation Ajax". I suppose we'll have to wait another 40 or 50 years for any information on all the other CIA puppet installation operations, which seems to be the standard amount of time it takes for any truth to come out (with the exception of the Kennedy assassination, which we'll never see).
As to the "Petro Dollar"... I know darn well that it is not some different currency. The point is, what do you think would happen to the so-called "value" of the US Federal Reserve Note (which has ABSOLUTELY no backing other than a collective confidence) if the world stopped trading Oil with our fiat currency? And, what's interesting to look into, is what happens to foreign countries who attempt to move away from the US dollar. Iran and Libya are two good examples.
You asked why I chose these quotes from Washington. It’s simple. Washington stated specifically that the citizens’ education and information was a PRIMARY CONCERN. And then further wrote: “The inducements of interest for observing that conduct will best be referred to your own reflections and experience. "With me a predominant motive has been to endeavor to gain time to our country to settle and mature its yet recent institutions, and to progress without interruption to that degree of strength and consistency which is necessary to give it, humanly speaking, the command of its own fortunes.” There is no statement that the Nation should forever stay clear of foreign entanglements but there is a statement that we must each be knowledgeable."
The CIA operation was TPAJAX. In the study of this period of Iranian history, three thing are usually ignored which is a violation of Washington’s call for knowledge. 1) the Shah was in power already. 2) Mosaddegh was elected in Iran with the help of Soviet money and propaganda. His election was possible by a conjoining of the twelvers and the communists in Iran. He demanded a more powerful Parliament and the Shah refused. Mosaddegh resigned his elected position and helped to foment a popular revolution that was put down by a portion of the military that supported the Shah. 3) At this time, the Soviets were expanding their influence all around the world and while Stalin was about to drop dead, his minions were not about to halt Soviet expansion. Knowledge of Soviet intentions, desires and views of the worth of individual lives and of the same for the Brotherhood and like organizations are valid considerations and are appropriate considerations in deciding whether or not to take sides.
Washington never stated that the nation was to never take an international stand or interest or to remain forever isolationist. He said that he believed, at least for his time, consolidation of the nation was paramount.
You added to the list – Morsi. The Muslim Brotherhood, CAIR and its sixteen in USA associates and many others internationally, including Morsi, have a pedigree that includes the Hanzar Division, its leader, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (Qud), and adulation of another democratically elected leader, Adolf H.
I am finding to many little gramatical errors and mispellings. I may have to consider hiring a publicist and a speech writer.
So, Operation Ajax was just on paper and it really didn't happen? No CIA involvement in ousting Moseddegh.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.
I did not state that there was no operation TPAJAX; I did not say that the CIA was not involved. If, with the information available to us, at this time, If I were to say anything that was a judgement of TPAJAX, it might be - so what?
I greatly worry that cherry-picking one phrase or two from any respected work to often obscures and even conra-states the actual meaning and purpose the author or speaker intended. The frequently used Industrial-Military complex near quote of Eisenhower is one such instance. Here is what Eisenhower said first and what must be understood before the M-I complex line.
“Throughout America's adventure in free government, such basic purposes have been to keep the peace; to foster progress in human achievement, and to enhance liberty, dignity and integrity among peoples and among nations.
To strive for less would be unworthy of a free and religious people.
Any failure traceable to arrogance or our lack of comprehension or readiness to sacrifice would inflict upon us a grievous hurt, both at home and abroad.
Progress toward these noble goals is persistently threatened by the conflict now engulfing the world. It commands our whole attention, absorbs our very beings. We face a hostile ideology global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method. Unhappily the danger it poses promises to be of indefinite duration. To meet it successfully, there is called for, not so much the emotional and transitory sacrifices of crisis, but rather those which enable us to carry forward steadily, surely, and without complaint the burdens of a prolonged and complex struggle – with liberty the stake. Only thus shall we remain, despite every provocation, on our charted course toward permanent peace and human betterment.”
Next Eisenhower says: “Crises there will continue to be. In meeting them, whether foreign or domestic, great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that some spectacular and costly action could become the miraculous solution to all current difficulties. A huge increase in the newer elements of our defenses; development of unrealistic programs to cure every ill in agriculture; a dramatic expansion in basic and applied research – these and many other possibilities, each possibly promising in itself, may be suggested as the only way to the road we wish to travel.” This is the meaning of the M-I complex line. It means – do not look for miracle cures or believe any all-encompassing claims of any salesman. It essentially states that there are snake oil salesmen in all industries and some military leaders might try to buy the snake oil.
“A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.”
To more complete a statement as to why I picked additional sentiments from Washington's and Eisenhower's Farewell Addresses is made when one considers all of each address and more from each man's life.
Washington fought with the British Militia officer in the French and Indian War and had Native American allies. Washington was aware of the immense part the French assistance played in the Revolution - from the Bon Homme Richard to the French Troops that fought along side him from Rhode Island all the way to Yorktown. The Battle of Saratoga is claimed to have been won win French weapons and powder - better than 50% of these supplies coming from the French.
It becomes hard to believe that Washington would declare absolute and enduring isolationism with the knowledge that its was in fact foriegn entanglements that won the Revolution.
In like manner, Eisenhower knew the part colaboration between the Military and the leaders of industry palyed in the success gained in WWII. It is hard to believe that he would demonize such sources of success. He didn't; he warned against snake oil salesman and buyers of snake oil in the federal government.
With either man, they knew that help had gotten the nation to where it was. Neither would blanketedly deny help to others with similar causes.
Separate names with a comma.